Home » Aviation » Chinese and Russian Radars On Track To See Through U.S. Stealth


Chinese and Russian Radars On Track To See Through U.S. Stealth

An F-35B Lightning II aircraft takes off from the amphibious assault ship USS Wasp (LHD-1) in 2013. A former senior Navy official told USNI News its stealth protection could be pierced by new Chinese and Russian radars. US Navy Photo

An F-35B Lightning II aircraft takes off from the amphibious assault ship USS Wasp (LHD-1) in 2013. A former senior Navy official told USNI News its stealth protection could be pierced by new Chinese and Russian radars. US Navy Photo

A growing trend in Russian and Chinese radar could make U.S. stealth fighters easier to see and — more importantly — easier to target for potential adversaries, a former senior U.S. Navy official told USNI News.

U.S. fighters — like the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) — are protected by stealth technology optimized for higher frequency targeting radars but not for lower frequency radars.

Until now a focus on higher frequencies have not been a problem because low frequency radars have traditionally been unable to generate “weapons quality tracks.”

JSF and the F-22 are protected from higher frequencies in the Ku, X, C and parts of the S bands. But both jets can be seen on enemy radars operating in the longer wavelengths like L, UHF and VHF.

In other words, Russian and Chinese radars can generally detect a stealth aircraft but not clearly enough to give an accurate location to a missile

But that is starting to change.

“Acquisition and fire control radars are starting to creep down the frequency spectrum,” a former senior U.S. Navy official told USNI News on Monday.
With improved computing power, low frequency radars are getting better and better at discerning targets more precisely.

“I don’t see how you long survive in the world of 2020 or 2030 when dealing with these systems if you don’t have the lower frequency coverage,” the former official said.

Further, new foreign rival warships are increasingly being built with both high and low frequency radars.

“Prospective adversaries are putting low frequency radars on their surface combatants along with the higher frequency systems,” the former official said.

Chinese warships like the Type 52C Luyang II and Type 52D Luyang III have both high and low frequency radars, the former official said.

The first of the People's Army Liberation Navy Type 052D Luyang III destroyer. PLAN Photo

The first of the People’s Army Liberation Navy Type 052D Luyang III destroyer. PLAN Photo

“If you don’t have the signature appropriate to that [radar], you’re not going to be very survivable,” he said.
“The lower frequency radars can cue the higher frequency radars and now you’re going to get wacked.”

Nor will the Navy’s vaunted Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air (NIFC-CA) do much to help the situation. Firstly, given the proliferation of low frequency radars, there are serious questions about the ability of the F-35C’s survivability against the toughest of air defenses, the former official said.

“All-aspect is highly desirable against this sort of networked [anti-air] environment,” he said.
Secondly, the Chinese and Russians are almost certain to use cyber and electronic attack capabilities to disrupt NIFC-CA, which is almost totally reliant on data links.

“I question how well all these data links are going to work in a heavily contested [radio frequency] environment where you have lots and lots of jamming going on,” the former official said.

Moreover, in certain parts of the world potential adversaries —China and Russia— are developing long-range anti-radiation missiles that could target the central node of the NIFC-CA network—the Northrop Grumman E-2D Advanced Hawkeye.

E-2D Hawkeye from the Pioneers of Air Test and Evaluation Squadron (VX) 1 on Aug. 27, 2013. US Navy Photo

E-2D Hawkeye from the Pioneers of Air Test and Evaluation Squadron (VX) 1 on Aug. 27, 2013. US Navy Photo

“I think the anti-radiation homing weapons that are passive and go long-range are very, very difficult for the NIFC-CA concept to contend with,” the former official said.

Fundamentally, the Navy’s lack of an all-aspect broadband stealth jet on the carrier flight deck is giving fuel to advocates of a high-end Unmanned Carrier Launched Airborne Surveillance and Strike (UCLASS) aircraft that can tackle the toughest enemy air defenses.

Without such capability, the Navy’s carrier fleet will fade into irrelevance, the former official said.

  • CharleyA

    Lots going on with this article, but basically it says that F-35C is essentially obsolete before it gets to the fleet. Better to kill it now, and develop a heavy strike UCLASS, and start the F/A-XX now. As for long range anti-radition missiles, they are a threat. However, incoming missiles can be detected and the active radar can be cycled, plus passive ESM geolocation with E-2D / Growlers has been testing fairly well.

  • Peter

    Looks like the EA-18G will have even more importance now.

    Really, there are ways around this, such as the USN and USAF adopting longer-range standoff missiles (even foreign made ones) so that the F-35s don’t have to get so close to the targets to do damage.

    The F/A-XX is indeed a possibility and the USN has hinted that they want a new fighter/interceptor like what the the F-14 was on the carriers.

  • John O’Reilly

    Haha, it’s clear now that USNI has, for some reason (financial perhaps?), adopted the mission of pressing for a so-called “strike UCLASS” and is unabashedly attempting to influence popular opinion by putting garbage like this out. An unnamed “former senior U.S. Naval official” tells USNI about the well-known development of low freq radars and this is news? This article wreaks of pure desperation as the UCLASS RFP is finalized.

    The conclusion of the article is downright laughable. How survivable is UCLASS going to be when a Flanker, or better yet a J-20+ fighter, comes hunting for it? Oh, I guess UCLASS will have the magic stealth that protects it from all detection methods, probably even visual. Someone better tell the Navy to cancel the E-2D also, it’s just not survivable apparently. Among other ridiculous things, the article also argues that because our datalinks are vulnerable, we should become MORE reliant on UAVs for combat operations. Logical.

    Get it together, USNI. This is absolutely embarrassing. Your reputation is at risk with the Fleet.

  • 2IDSGT

    “Until now a focus on higher frequencies have not been a problem because low frequency radars have traditionally been unable to generate ‘weapons quality tracks.'”

    Uh, Dave…. This may be confusing to you, but the limitations of low-frequency radar have nothing to do with “tradition.” I know… you feel like an important insider when one of Axe’s washed-up O-6s repeats what he read in a two year-old AVweek he flipped through at the VA.

  • Ctrot

    So the source for this is an unnamed “former senior US Navy official”. How convenient.

  • omegatalon

    Everyone knows stealth was designed to only give a small margin of relief and the DoD is already planning their GEN 6 aircraft which will be stealthy, maneuverable and very fast (Mach 3+).

    • DMH

      That’s why they want to buy 2,500 F-35’s? Because they know it will be obsolete?

      • Skaya

        Because they’re the DoD and they have the money for it.

      • CoryC

        No…because its U.S. tax payer money, not their own…And the politicians we elect are getting tremendous RFV – Return For their Vote. It’s been that way for a looooonnngg time. The only difference between when this started and today is – we used to be a creditor nation and now we’re a debtor nation beholden to China and the today’s politicians know they are on borrowed time and dwindling fumes.

    • Gary Sellars

      Fast aircraft get hot due to friction, and their hot skin means they shine like the sun for IR seekers and imaging thermal trackers. Not exactly stealthy…

      Stealth is useful, but its not omnipotent, and it requires many design constraints that limits aircraft performance.

  • zaza

    Black on the USSR……..etc.

  • zaza

    I guess it will come down to anti-anti-missile-missile-anti-missiles.

  • Supernova1987

    At some point in the future the F-35 will be armed with long range missiles to take care of these low band radar systems.
    I know that the future for anti-radar missile is supposed to be the Next Generation Missile, but couldn’t the AMRAAM be modified to have an anti-radar capability for the short term?
    The F-35 could even launch at M1.6/40000′ to extend the range and speed of the AMRAAM.
    It would not have a sufficient warhead to completely destroy a radar system, but it would probably be sufficient to damage it for long enough to be able to approach it and destroy it completely with other weapons.
    Using F-18s with HARM would be much more dangerous because they are not stealthy at all.

    • madskills

      You didn’t read the article. Stealth is a myth. If you have volume, like a plane, there is a way to spot you. Using missiles from non stealth planes, that cost $10 million, is just as effective as using planes costing $150 million. The f-35 still has a range problem, unless you put external tanks on which then makes them non stealth….

      • Supernova1987

        No sealth is not a myth. Radars used to guide weapons are uneffective against the F-35, except at close range. Low band radars would detect it from a certain distance but would be too unaccurate to guide a missile effectively.
        And the F-35 has a pretty good range.

        • madskills

          They can’t use the F-35 on the DEW line because of range. Stealth may make it more difficult to shoot down, but they have a signature and if they know you’re coming there goes the advantage.

        • Gary Sellars

          Ever heard of IR seekers? Modern ones do not need to lock onto hot engine exhausts and are all aspect.

          • Supernova1987

            At what range? Nobody ever said the F-35 was completely undetectable.
            Any plane with no IR reduction will be detected from significantly further.

          • Another Guest (from Australia)

            Supernova1987,

            Yes a lot of people said the F-35 was completely detectable.
            An F-35 with no IR reduction will indeed be detected from significantly further.

          • Vector

            Ever heard about IR lase counter-measure…..wake up, u.s. is already using those laser to protect helicopters from IR MANPADS, its about time the day when those system, 100 times powerful, will be fitted on external sthealty pods on F22 and F35. A missile, in the final phase of the engagement, rely on IR or its own radar, that radar can’t detect the F35 while the IR seeker can be blinded as i mentioned above….wake uuuuuuup

        • Another Guest

          Supernova1987,

          Don’t you understand what we’re trying to explain to you that stealth is a myth. You need to stop drinking the Kool-Aid, you’re believing in total to indifference to what is real.

          Stealth is useful only against short-wavelength radar of the kind that might be carried on an interceptor or used by a radar-guided missile. Physicists say no amount of RAM (Radar Absorbent Material) coating will protect you from 15ft to 20ft wavelength radar of the kind the Russians have had since the 1940s.

          If you are putting F-35 up against the newer generation of much, much more powerful long-wave length Russian radars, as well as the P-14 Tall King family of Cold-War era radars and some of the newer Chinese radars of a ground-to-air unit that would have no difficulty detecting and tracking an approaching F-35.

          The Su-35S Super Flanker-E has a comprehensive radiofrequency offensive/defensive suite, including Digital RF Memory wingtip RF jammers for the mid/upper bands, and an optional Low/Mid band jamming pod. The addition of the electronic attack (EA) capability complicates matters for Western fighters including the F-35, because the Su-35’s advanced digital radio frequency memory jammers can seriously degrade the performance of friendly radars. It also effectively blinds the on-board radars found on-board air-to-air missiles like the AIM-120 AMRAAM. The Su-35 can also change directions fast at high speed and high-altitude for anyone that does get a long-range no-escape-zone (NEZ) solution on it. Thus, ruining the AIM-120 NEZ for those shots.

          Unfortunately there is a little margin for error, the large exhaust nozzle of the F-35 will be extremely hot, an enormous fuel burn (in full afterburner) that will limit its range and has a very big heat signature. The back end of the F-35 in full afterburner is something like 1600 degrees (Fahrenheit). In terms of temperature, aluminium combusts at 1100. You are talking about something really, really hot. If you have got a dirty big sensor on the front of your Su-35S or your PAK-FA or whatever, it lights up like Christmas lights and there is nothing you can do about it. The plume because of the symmetric exhaust, is all over the place. It is not shielded, it is not ducted in any useful way. The Sukhois will be able to seek and destroy the F-35 when using the heat seeking BVR (Beyond Visual Range) AA-12 (R-77) Adder air-to-air missiles.

          Oh BTW have you forgotten that the F-22 is afraid of the rain. The stealth paint gets wash off by rain and after each flight the F-22 has to be repainted. The same thing will happen to the fat pregnant pig F-35.

          The F-35 is at best a great national scandal, unproven and at worst the biggest piece of high-tech boondoggle to ever come out of United States of America.

          Again, if the defence acquisition was up to me, I’ll be certainly to kill the F-35 and encourage the allies to cancel this lemon too, as a way to put it into the indoor fire and watch it burn for good. Instead take business else where. Lockheed Martin are bunch of crooks, outliers and I’ll never do business with them again. They are certainly a bad bargain for any customer.

          It is time to put the F-35 into AMARC and to get them chopped into the recycle bin.

        • Another Guest

          Supernova1987,

          “the F-35 has a pretty good range”. Lets have a look here.

          Combat radius for the F-35A variant of 683 miles (540 nm, 1,100 km) and a ferry range with internal fuel of 1,379 miles (1,200 nm, 2,220 km).
          Do you consider the F-35 has the range? No it doesn’t have a range, think again.

    • Gary Sellars

      Long range missiles? In the F-35s cramped internal missile bays?

      • Supernova1987

        A JASSM-ER almost fits inside the bay… 500nm+ range.
        The JASSM-ER being stealthy it could even be carried on external pylons without increasing much the signature of the plane against these LF radars. The F-35’s pylons are supposed to be LO to some extent.

  • NavySubNuke

    all the more reason to cancel the F-35 and keep building F/A-18s and F-15s

    • FWGuy

      yea that makes sense lets fly none stealth aircraft easily spotted on radar against Russia’s and China’s stealth aircraft that will become operational in the next 5-10 years. China is already test flying its J-20 and is in works on a J-20+ enhanced (more stealthy) version.
      Why don’t we go back to the P-51 mustang, we can manufacture them for less than $1 million each.

      • NavySubNuke

        You clearly don’t really have any idea of what you are talking about on this. You should at least try to read the article next time so your position isn’t based complete ignorance.

        • thehotfinger

          His point is valid. For all the shortcomings of stealth versus advancements in radar technology, low observable is the future and will almost always have the advantage over legacy air frames. It’s well understood that even an all aspect stealth aircraft like B-2 is not completely invisible to radar energy, rather the combination of shape, materials, electronic countermeasures, and tactics all coalesce to reduce the effective detection range of radar systems in essence creating gaps in an enemy’s integrated networks.

          The point being this: if these new radars can be effective at putting fifth generation stealth aircraft as risk, legacy systems such as F-18 with no defense at all might as well stay parked lest they be knocked out of the sky with little effort.

          • NavySubNuke

            Given how much stealth cost the fact that it isn’t going to actually be low observable for the bands in which they are now building radars means you are just wasting money. Look at the cost per flight hour for stealth aircraft vs. non-stealth. Those coatings don’t maintain themselves. While the B2 is notoriously bad the F117 and F22 were not all that much better.
            I’d rather save the money and build more legacy fighters that are cheaper to buy and to operate so we can actually build a sufficient amount of them. The F22 is the greatest fighter ever build but the fact that we have <200 of them is a serious problem.

          • Gary Sellars

            The F22 is a hangar queen. One hour in the air, and the diva needs 3 days in the spa getting her nails done….

          • NavySubNuke

            exactly the problem with stealth aircraft – the cost of keeping that skin “stealthy” is much higher than that of legacy planes without RAM coatings. Better to buy more planes that are cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate!

          • SAC Forever

            I love it! Great comment! I’m guessing you’re prior service Air Force. I’ll go so far as to guess the ‘old but gold’ SAC?

          • J_kies

            You stated a false expectation; using LF radar or multilateration systems to alert and an imaging IR / Passive radar seeker head on the interceptor missile, that stealth bird is no more difficult than a 777 straight and level.

            Buy enough aircraft that you can remain combat effective when you’re sacrificing pilots for your combat objectives. Plan on high attrition rates regardless of aircraft costs / shapes.

          • thehotfinger

            I do not believe that is correct – from the standpoint of detection ranges, low frequency radar emissions increase all radar cross sections exponentially therefore while all aircraft could be detected at longer ranges, comparatively speaking an SU-35 for example would be detected at much longer ranges then an F-22 or F-35, these latter examples possessing a fraction of the baseline RCS compared to the former.

            In any event LRF, while potentially useful in helping to reduce the efficacy of stealth, is not a magic bullet by any means and is susceptible to various countermeasures – most notably low altitude flight profiles cause tremendous interference with ground clutter with LFR. Given the physics involved, I’m not sure that is a limitation that will overcome anytime soon.

          • J_kies

            As a physicist and sensor guy, I am very comfortable with the physics involved. One of the attributes of ‘stealth’ is to prevent coherent addition of the various surface areas that increase the retroreflection skin return; LF radar sees the volumetric return tied to the size of the vehicle, multi-lateration provide 3d returns. A LF radar return from a funny shaped vehicle will pretty closely resemble the skin return from any vehicle of similar size so F-35 or F-22 will be ~ F18 or F-15.

            As for ground clutter, let me introduce you to the magic of Doppler rejection and as to various self-protection jammers etc please consider Pseudo-Random Noise Waveforms and Gordon Moore’s observation. Sir you’re just flat wrong.

          • Nick

            your a physicist and sensor guy, and i’am the last King of Scotland and fully qualified to tell you about everything in life. Don’t buy in to folks who have to qualify thier comments with a completely unproven identity.

          • Joe

            Nick, you are dead wrong and sensor guy is spot on. Pick up any technical book on radar. To resolve a low altitude flight profile does not require more than 40MHz of bandwidth (i.e. 3.75m range resolution) and to process that is no issue with current Russian tech. That should also take care of the multipath effect. Ground clutter is no issue (it will fold into a different part of the Doppler spectrum).
            Regards,
            Joe

        • sferrin

          Pot/kettle. Your position makes about as much sense as a submarine with a screen door.

          • NavySubNuke

            at least a screen door doesn’t cost $1T like this botched concept. If you ever get a chance to talk to one of the test pilots privately – at least of the Navy variant – you will understand a little more of what I am talking about.

      • 98J-98C 1989-1998

        It has been well known for decades that military development in Russia and China is highly dependent on obtaining U.S. military / defense technology and then reverse-engineer for their production purposes….
        That is until our recent hyper-sonic technology seems to have been literally handed to China….how else could their hyper-sonic development attain its current level of sophistication as fast as it has to date?
        And perhaps that is actually in line with author Charles W. Taylor’s revelations in his book “A World 2010 – A New Order of Nations”, written for the U.S. Army War College and published in 2000, in which he states that as the U.S. withdraws its military from its former Cold War posture and downsizes all braches, it will simultaneously hand over its defense technology to other nations in order to “level the playing feild”….I kid you not.
        If the U.S. ceases further development of its stealth fighter programs, China and Russia will do the same out of necessity.

    • sferrin

      Oh brother.

  • Derek Sage

    Good thing we are going to spend about a trillion on the unsurviable F-35

    • robertsgt40

      Yup. Spent almost half trillion so far 7yrs overdue and doesnt fly. Other than that, I’m sure the Rooskies and Chinese are quaking in their boots.

  • madskills

    This is the equivalent of having the best Blackberry phone in the world. The problem is everyone switched to Apple and Samsung….. LOL! A bunch of clowns sold us this bill of goods. Wonderful. Stop building the F-35 today, Start thinking abut ways to overcome those missiles that look like telephone poles and missiles with those short stubby wings. I recommend they buy a whole bunch of rolls of Reynolds aluminum foil and start having guys cut them up and make chaff. Or we could buy it from Lockheed as $1.6 million a cut up roll….

    • Gary Sellars

      Even better is to learn to live with others, accept your relative decline, and simply accommodate the peaceful rise of other nations…

      If the British could do this after the collapse of their Empire, surely the US could manage the same?

      • J_kies

        Gary; the Brits weren’t graceful about it and they openly discussed their role as the Greeks advising the new Romans of empire (the US) who mostly shared their culture and beliefs.

        Are you are advocating the US find someone that shares our culture / beliefs and has free cash to afford the military supremacy costs? Who?

  • FWGuy

    The author seems to forget, jamming goes both ways and the US Airforce and Navy have very advanced EW systems and those system continue to be improved.

    • J_kies

      Gordon Moore’s observation and competent application of Maxwell’s equations with modern waveforms built as a multiple-transmitter multiple receiver systems makes the ‘very advanced’ title dubious for anything more than 2 years old. We ought not to assume that we have a military technical edge when high school students have built working passive radar systems. (I believe few people reading this comment have heard of passive radar systems, fewer people have considered the implications…)

      • R’ Yitzchak M

        X-47B and Growlers are tools that would enable Passive Radar utilization (Together with ANY other broadcasting (radio, TV and even our or friendly embassy in the target region) today there is a saying..” THE ONE WHO TURNS ITS RADAR FIRST ON IS the ONE WHO IS “Signing – out” (PERMANENTLY)” So passive radar is the way with high intensity IR sensors with over 100 mile TAR (Target Acquisition Range)

  • FWGuy

    Long range and high speed anti-radiation & anti-ship weapons will also help solve the problem.

    • Gary Sellars

      Long range and high speed anti-radiation & anti-ship weapons will also help solve the problem of the threat posed by the use of carriers as the cornerstone of aggressive US power projection…

      • FWGuy

        Sounds like some of the Communists China’s view points that I have read online. With your pro-Communists view points, Cuba or China will be happy to accept you as new resident !!

  • J_kies

    Sooo; if the airborne arm is currently too short-sticked/short-legged and the ‘unaffordable’ F-35 won’t fix those issues… This isn’t pimping for UCLASS, this is open war against the flattops and most of the surface assets. This “news” as to the terribly obvious results of Moore’s law and EM physics pretty much makes ‘force projection’ a one-way trip against competent opponents. (IR / passive RF homing seekers don’t care if you thought you had hard wonder-woman’s invisible plane).
    So subs and VLS tubes stuffed with land-attack missiles are the wave of the future, plan on hate mail from the brown shoes.

  • matimal

    That’s because they stole the plans from lazy defense contractors.

  • xy

    >>“I think the anti-radiation homing weapons that are passive and go long-range are very, very difficult for the NIFC-CA concept to contend with,”

    Array coordination.

  • Dew Free

    All this talk about stealth is fine and good but,what about the communist that are inside our Gov.Has anyone given thought to why these Countries are getting our tech.There is so many of them now in Our Gov that hell,They act as if they want a war with their own people .To what end do you think all this will serve ,other then Luciferians and their treaties with other Countries that infringe on our Liberties.

  • Dew Free

    Worry about fighting other countries after you have won the very fight here at home!

  • Another Guest

    Vector,

    Ever heard about the NNIIRT 55Zh6M Nebo M Mobile “Counter Stealth” Radar?

    Here’s a description.

    – Development initiated late 1990s leveraging experience in Nebo SVU VHF-Band AESA radar;

    – 2012-2013 IOC (Initial Operational Capability) intended;

    – Designed from the outset to detect stealth fighters and provide early warning and track data to missile batteries and fighters;

    – The VHF component will provide a significant detection and tracking capability against fighter and UCAV sized stealth targets;

    – High off-road capability permits placement well away from built up areas, enabling concealment;

    – Rapid deploy and stow times permit evasion of air attacks by frequent movement, defeats cruise missiles like JASSM (Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile);

    – Initial Nebo M builds for Russian Air Defence Forces, but expected like other “counter-stealth” radars to be marketed for global export to arbitrary clientele.

    The VHF band element in the 1L119 Nebo SVU / RLM-M Nebo M AESA radar will detect the F-35 at a distance of tens of miles. That is without a doubt. What that means is that the aircraft is going to be in great difficulty if it tries to deal with what I call a modern or contemporary threat. The same is also true when you deal with these newer stealth fighters, because they are designed to compete with the F-22 Raptor. They fly higher; they are faster and more agile—much, much more agile. They have more powerful radars and much, much better antenna packages for other sensors. The F-35 is not meeting its specifications and its specifications are inadequate to deal with the changed threat environment.

  • Another Guest (from Australia)

    Vector and Supernova1987,

    It doesn’t matter if you got external stealthy weapons pods on the F-22 or the less capable boondoggle F-35 with LO pylons.

    The F-35 has very small weapons load and the JASSM-ER can’t fit inside its internal weapons bay. Too cramped. The JASSM-ER being stealthy it could even be carried on external pylons. It will still increase much the signature of the plane against these LF radars.

    The Counter-Stealth and Legacy low frequency long wave length radars will still detect them. These radars couldn’t care less if you got weapons tucked internally, RAM coated on the doors and joints etc.

  • boobtuber06 .

    All the more reason to put more $$ in the Growlers

  • na$$$$$a

    I think we should employ radar homing missiles tovblast their integrated mobile radars and use drones and counter measures to spook them. Use swarms of drones and anti radar missiles to knock out their Sam’s. Save the f22s for their air force. THAT will give the ruski s a taste of their own HMO. Pffsh, that was hard..

    • AC

      Try employing a little knowledge and logic, instead of hubris and chest beating, then perhaps your comments will be taken more seriously.

      For starters drones aren’t exactly cheap and have limited range, compared to the longer range radars, and they can be effectively neutralized by cheaper short range missiles from point defence systems which can also be launched in swarms. Econ 101, the side using the drones cannot replace them fast enough.

      Then perhaps you can also explain how you will target the SAM systems with your drones when they are highly mobile systems that can target, shoot and scoot to a new location within 15-40 minutes. If you are lucky enough to spot them they will be gone by the time your “swarm of drones” gets there.

      Hmmph…that was easy.

  • Joseph Tan

    There goes down the drain the trillions dollars so-called not -so – stealth planes due to policymakers unable to anticipate the ascendancy and perfection/ improvement of the lower frequency radars.that given out longer wavelengths like L, UHF and VHF.

    • DemocracyRules

      Joseph Tan:
      Don’t give up just yet. A UHF-VHF absorbing stealth coating could fix the problem with a paint job.

      • Tostik

        The speculation I’ve read is the the F-117 had composite materials with good electromagnetic characteristics, with good radar absorbing foam in the cavities. Which absorbed low frequency radar waves. Which is why the P-18 low frequency radar only detected the F-117 at 50 kms, when it should have detected a fighter sized aircraft at 150 kms!

        • DemocracyRules

          Tostik:
          Yes, that sounds very plausible. The F-117 was truly amazing for it’s time. It’s ‘jeweled’ exterior, with multiple flat surfaces, was a sensible place to start on stealth designs. And people are wasting energy bad-mouthing stealth anyway. It’s not the only answer, and the Navy doesn’t like stealth much anyway.

          The Navy has trouble seeing the F-35 as being much better than the F-18E Superhornet. The F-18E is more visible on radar, but it takes a lot to get one of them out of the sky. A few F-18Es, piloted and unpiloted, with MALD-type UAVs as robo-wingmen that can spoof, rattle, and roll the enemy Radar, that would be tough to defeat. And F-18E’s are already in use as ‘wild weasels’, that specialize in Radar and sig-int destruction.

          • DemocracyRules

            Tostik:
            However, I think the Navy will be very a happy with its F-35Bs. I just saw a video of an F-35B at a UK airshow, hovering in a very long loiter, stable and controllable. Just hanging there in mid-air, in one place, for minutes on end, then landing gracefully, either conventionally, or vertically. Stunning.

          • Tostik

            I tried to post a couple of videos showing the F-35 beating the SU-35 in extreme maneuvers in side by side comparisons. But the USNI website doesn’t allow for video postings. But a guy named Yves Dulac has some youtube videos showing the F-35 beating the SU-35 in pirouettes, turn reversals, extreme pitch downs, and cobras at altitude. The F-35 is on one side of the screen, and the SU-35 is on the other side. Where will the F-35 hyper-critics hide now?

          • DemocracyRules

            Hi Tostik,
            Oh, the whining will never stop. Some are socialists spreading disinformation, and some are legitimate critics. It’s bad, but it’s better than having no critics. We learn more from our enemies than our friends. When an irritating, undermining colleague told me that he found a certain piece of my work uninteresting, I knew I had a real gem on my hands, and I focused on that.

            The critics never stop. Some authors are still claiming the B-29 was an unimportant airplane, because the B-32 was bigger. I guess the computer-controlled guns (in 1944!) were silly. The nuke deliveries, and the other amazing innovations were also useless. The Nazis and Soviets couldn’t make effective copies of the B-29, even with the stolen plans in hand.

          • Tostik

            The F-18E/F is a fine airplane with many more years of useful life. But when Admiral Greenert expressed concerns about sensors being able to detect the F-35 and that he needed more EA-18s, General Hostage of ACC shot him down by saying he would never put an EA-18 near an IADS with S-400s. He said the F-35 would be needed for that. The USN is still an infant in stealth, and the USAF has been developing tactics and testing capabilities in stealth for over 20 years. And Admiral Greenert is a submarine guy. 🙂

            And the new head of ACC, General Carlisle, said recently that the F-35 is an “order of magnitude” superior in EW than any 4 or 4.5 generation fighter.

          • DemocracyRules

            Tostik
            Nice reply, stuff I didn’t know! Well, as a submariner, Greenert has lived and breathed stealth for a long time. (Run Silent, Run Deep). Let’s face it, they are just bickering like kids. No one really knows how either aircraft will coordinate in the field. But my bet is that the S-400 has already been defeated multiple times by the Israelis.

            When Russia deployed the S-400 to Syria, some Israelis worried, but Mossad and Israeli military intelligence probably shouted with delight. IDF aircraft can play cat and mouse with S-400s all day long, to find out how they work. Probably, the S-400s can be defeated with the MALD-type systems, plus a bunch of cheap UAVs, swarming the radar. The S-400 launcher will quickly run out of missiles, and become a sitting duck.

            As for the ‘generation issue’, my call is that the F-35 is a generation 6. It is vastly better than the F-22. Easily one generation ahead. Watching it hoover gives it away. Imagine chasing the F-35, after hours of trying to just find it. A NZ F-35 training pilot for NATO said the F-35 could outfight anything, especially since it can slow down so much, so quickly.

            So as I chase the F-35, it goes over a rise, and it disappears. As I pass the rise, I unknowingly zoom past it, because the F-35 almost stopped in mid-air. The next thing I know, a missile is chasing me from behind. The F-35 is like that. No cobra maneuvers, no out-turning the foe in tight corners, nothing. It just almost stops in mid air, and lets you overshoot it.

  • Tostik

    A couple of inconvenient facts for this article. Low frequency radars must be large because of the size of the wave length, which makes them large and immobile. The Russians boast one of their latest low frequency radars can be folded down in 40 minutes, LOL, Not fast enough. And to have any accuracy whatsoever, they must emit large amounts of power. In other words, they’ll be seen before they see an F-35 or an F-22, and they’ll be the first to go.

    Perhaps the Serb shoot down of the F-117 reveals something unexpected. Of course, we all know the USAF was flying the same route night-after-night, and this enabled a very competent and energetic Serb battery commander to place his unit in a perfect position for a shot on the the F-117. The P-18 low frequency radar detected the F-117 at 50 kilometers and tracked it at 25 kilometers. It normally should have detected a non-stealthy fighter at 180 km and tracked it at 120 km. This shows that the primitive stealth of the F-117 had significant radar signature-reduction against low frequency radars. The F-35 and F-22 certainly have it too. And the F-117 had no EW suite, unlike the F-35, which has an excellent EW capabilities, probably better than the EA-18 in many ways. I can promise you the F-35 has some tricks for low frequency radars. Emit and die, low frequency radar.

    • Guest

      Let’s wait for the F-35 to become fully operational first before you mention its tricks.

      The only trick being played right now is on taxpayers’ wallets.

      • Tostik

        Every person, Every government, who has gotten the classified briefing has changed their minds about the F-35. I’ll give you another prediction. The new Canadian government, that said they’d terminate the F-35 order, is in the process of changing it’s mind even as we speak, just like what happened in Australia.

        And I do know of some great EW tricks the US military has, especially for low frequency radars. It’s very easy to spoof a radar that is overly dependent on computers to interpret it’s return. I can assure you the F-35 is cutting edge tech in this area. And the Eurofighter, the Rafale, and the F-15SE are more expensive than the F-35.

        • Martin Alfven Haider

          Untrue. So far, the F-35 is far more expensive than any of those other aircraft. And they are all significantly faster. The F-35 is a turkey.

          • Tostik

            Sorry,the Eurofighter, the Rafale, and the F-15 Silent Eagle have all clocked
            in at about $100 mil. The latest low-rate buy of the F-35, LRIP-10, has
            the F-35A at $98 mil. When in high-rate production, the F-35A will cost
            $85 mil. Also, the latest orders of the Super Hornet have them at $75
            mil.

            And the F-35 can actually go Mach 1.6 with a full internal
            weapons load. Your 4+ gen fighter has to have external fuel tanks,
            bombs, missiles and targeting pods to be combat ready, and most of these
            4+ gen fighters will be lucky to go Mach 1.4 with all these external
            stores.

            And have you seen the latest F-35 performance at the Paris Air Show? Spectacular! Especially the Pedal Turn.

    • Another Commenter

      You know the Serbs only used their radar for 17 seconds to target and shoot down the F-117. What’s really cool about that whole incident is that the Serbian officer that was responsible for the shoot-down, and the American pilot of the downed F-117, met up over a decade later, talked in great length about the event, and eventually became good friends. It’s a really neat story

      • Tostik

        Yeah, I’ve read a little bit on that too. It’s nice to know there are no hard feelings. 🙂 The Serb battery commander was a very competent, intelligent, and energetic person, but it still took a lot of stupidity from the USAF for the shoot down to occur. He took advantage of not only the same ingress and egress points night after night, but also of USAF aircraft radio transmissions in the clear, for everybody to hear.

  • DemocracyRules

    SO ACCORDING
    To the logic of this article, if everything went wrong, the Navy could have problems. That logic is sound, but not very meaningful. The questions are, what will go wrong, when, and can that be anticipated and avoided? Low-frequency radar may never become a problem, and if it does, its emergence will be slow. We know that because if it was easy to make, it would be made by now.

    The problem with all forms of low frequency electromagnetic radiation is that they have less energy than high-frequencies. We see this in the visible spectrum, where infra-red has much lower energy that ultraviolet. UV can quickly cause eye damage and sunburn, whereas IR needs massive emissions just to warm a person up. Low energy radar requires lots of power, lots of return-signal sensitivity, and some way to handle poor interference penetrance (like clouds).

    Meanwhile, MALD is on the march. This is a Raytheon missile that specializes in spoofing radar by broadcasting false return signals. A dozen MALDs can send spoofed return signals of a hundred F-35s, when there is no F-35 in theater. The Israelis have been using MALD-type radar-defeat methods with Syrian-Russian radars for years. Syrian radar operators have to play roulette. And spoofing low-frequency radar will be easier than spoofing high-frequency, because the signal is weak in the first place.

  • Martin Alfven Haider

    Great article. It confirms what I had read about “stealth” really meaning “stealth to some radar, but not others”. It makes the jack-of-all-trades F-35 even more of a disaster.